FEDERAL COURT OF AUSTRALIA

Deeming v Pesutto (No 3) [2024] FCA 1430

ORDERS

THE COURT ORDERS THAT:

1.    The proceeding be adjourned to a date to be fixed for the making of final orders.

Note:    Entry of orders is dealt with in Rule 39.32 of the Federal Court Rules 2011.

REASONS FOR JUDGMENT

O’CALLAGHAN J

INTRODUCTION

1    The applicant, Mrs Moira Deeming MLC, is a politician. She is a Member of the Victorian Parliament for the Western Metropolitan Region in the Legislative Council. She was elected on 26 November 2022.

2    She is a member of the Victorian Liberal Party; and from 26 November 2022 until her expulsion on 12 May 2024, she was a member of the Victorian Parliamentary Liberal Party.

3    The respondent, Mr John Pesutto MP, is also a politician. He is a Member of the Victorian Parliament for the electoral district of Hawthorn in the Legislative Assembly, and was also elected on 26 November 2022. He is a member of the Victorian Liberal Party. And since 8 December 2022, he has been the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Victorian Parliamentary Liberal Party (which I shall also refer to as the party).

4    Mrs Deeming is, and has been for some years, a passionate advocate for the preservation or reinstatement of sex-based rights and safeguards for women and children (such as female only bathrooms and changerooms).

5    On Saturday 18 March 2023, she attended and briefly spoke at a “Let Women Speak” rally on the steps of Parliament House in Melbourne, conducted by a UK-based organisation called Standing for Women (SFW). I will refer to this as the LWS rally. SFW was founded by a woman named Ms Kellie-Jay Keen (sometimes also known as Posie Parker) who led the LWS rally.

6    At around the same time, various other protestors gathered to express their views. They included “trans rights” and gender diverse activists, and a group of men in black clothing who were identified as members of the National Socialist Network, and were described as “Nazis” or “neo-Nazis”.

7    As a result of what occurred in and around the steps of Parliament House that day, Mr Pesutto put matters in train to have Mrs Deeming expelled from the party, which ultimately occurred.

8    In the course of doing so, over the course of a few days after the rally, Mr Pesutto issued a media release, gave radio and TV interviews, held a press conference and caused to be distributed to media outlets an “expulsion motion and dossier”.

9    Mrs Deeming alleged in this proceeding that, in the course of doing so, Mr Pesutto defamed her, including because he falsely accused her of associating with neo-Nazis. She sought, among other things, an order that he pay her damages, including aggravated damages.

10    Mr Pesutto admitted that he defamed Mrs Deeming, but not in the way she alleged. He contended that Mrs Deeming’s pleaded imputations are not carried and that he is entitled to rely on defences, including of public interest and honest opinion. Accordingly, Mr Pesutto submitted that the proceeding against him should be dismissed.

11    Ms S Chrysanthou SC with Mr B Dean of counsel appeared for Mrs Deeming.

12    Dr M J Collins AM KC appeared with Mr T J Mullen, Ms H Jager and Mr D Dexter of counsel for Mr Pesutto.

13    The trial of the proceeding occupied 19 hearing days. Closing written submissions, including a number of highly detailed schedules, comprised almost 1,000 pages, as follows:

(a)    The applicant’s closing submissions dated 18 October 2024 (ACS) plus:

(i)    Annexure A, entitled “Chronology of the Let Women Speak Rally” (ACS Annexure A);

(ii)    Annexure B, entitled “Extent of Publication” (ACS Annexure B);

(iii)    Annexure C, entitled “Respondent’s allegations regarding ‘controversy’ about Mrs Deeming, media reporting about her, and her prior reputation” (ACS Annexure C);

(iv)    Annexure D, entitled “Abusive emails / messages received by Mrs Deeming following the Publications” (ACS Annexure D); and

(v)    Annexure E, entitled “Social media posts about Mrs Deeming following the Media Release” (ACS Annexure E).

(b)    The respondent’s closing submissions dated 18 October 2024 (RCS) plus:

(i)    Schedule A, entitled “Detailed Factual Chronology and Summary of Evidence” (RCS Schedule A);

(ii)    Schedule B, entitled “Table of alleged republications” (RCS Schedule B); and

(iii)    Schedule C, entitled “Table of media and social media prior to Publications” (RCS Schedule C).

14    Over 40 affidavits were filed and relied upon by the parties, and more than 800 exhibits were tendered in evidence.

15    Given the very large volume of material, I have endeavoured to include in these reasons references to the court book, the transcript, the exhibits and the submissions where it is helpful to do so.

16    The affidavits, submissions, exhibits and other publicly accessible documents can be accessed on the Online File.

WITNESSES

17    Mrs Deeming read and relied upon two affidavits sworn by her on 27 May and 23 July 2024 respectively (Court Book Part B – Affidavits (CB):1; CB:2). She also relied on the evidence of:

(1)    Mr Andrew Deeming, her husband (CB:4);

(2)    Mr Geoffrey Campey, Principal of Social Media Evidence Experts (Court Book Part B – Expert Evidence (CBE));

(3)    Ms Raewyn Clark, a member of the Liberal Party who attended the LWS rally (CB:3);

(4)    Ms Angela Dennis, a woman who attended the LWS rally (CB:5);

(5)    Mr Christopher Duke, a Senior Minister of the Presbyterian Church (CB:6);

(6)    Mr Rukshan Fernando, a videographer and independent journalist who filmed the LWS rally and the other groups and protestors in the vicinity of Parliament House on 18 March 2023 (CB:7);

(7)    Ms Renee Gorman, who works part-time as an electoral officer for Mrs Deeming (CB:8);

(8)    Ms Renee Heath MLC, the Liberal Member for the Eastern Victoria Region in the Victorian Legislative Council (and between December 2022 and May 2023, Secretary of the Victorian Parliamentary Liberal Party) (CB:9; CB:10);

(9)    Senator Sarah Henderson, a Liberal Senator for Victoria in the Australian Parliament (CB:11);

(10)    Mr David Hodgett MP, the Liberal Member for Croydon in the Victorian Legislative Assembly (CB:12; CB:13);

(11)    Ms Anna Hughes, a catering assistant who performs casual administrative work for Mrs Deeming (CB:14);

(12)    Mr Joseph McCracken MLC, the Liberal Member for the Western Victoria Region in the Victorian Legislative Council (CB:15; CB:16);

(13)    Mr Nyunggai Warren Mundine AO, a senior member of the Liberal Party (CB:17);

(14)    Ms Susannah Oddi, a woman who attended the LWS rally (CB:18);

(15)    Ms Helen Papadimitriou, a woman who attended the LWS rally (CB:19);

(16)    Mr Richard Riordan MP, the Liberal Member for Polwarth in the Victorian Legislative Assembly (CB:20; CB:21);

(17)    Mr John Ruddick MLC, a Member of the New South Wales Legislative Council and a member of the Libertarian Party (formerly the Liberal Democratic Party) (CB:22);

(18)    Mr Ryan Smith, the former Liberal Member for Warrandyte in the Victorian Legislative Assembly (CB:23; CB:24);

(19)    Ms Dayna Thompson, an accountant who is a close friend of Mrs Deeming and is involved in the Liberal Party (CB:25);

(20)    Ms Naomi Walton, a paramedic who attended the same church as Mrs Deeming (CB:26);

(21)    Mr Kim Wells MP, the Liberal Member for Rowville in the Victorian Legislative Assembly (CB:27; CB:28); and

(22)    Ms Rachael Wong, the Chief Executive Officer of Women’s Forum Australia (WFA) (CB:29).

18    Mrs Deeming, Mr Campey, Mr Duke, Ms Heath, Mr Hodgett, Mr McCracken, Mr Riordan, Mr Smith, Ms Walton, Mr Wells and Ms Wong were cross-examined.

19    Mr Pesutto read and relied upon two affidavits affirmed by him on 27 May and 22 July 2024 respectively (CB:30; CB:31). He also relied on the evidence of:

(1)    Dr Matt Bach, the former Liberal Member for the North-Eastern Metropolitan Region in the Victorian Legislative Council and Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party in the Legislative Council from December 2022 until August 2023 (CB:32; CB:33);

(2)    Ms Georgie Crozier MLC, the Liberal Member for the Southern Metropolitan Region in the Victorian Legislative Council and Leader of the Liberal Party in the Legislative Council since December 2022 (CB:34; CB:35);

(3)    Mr Nick Johnston, Director of Communications to Mr Pesutto from 13 March 2023 to 3 March 2024 (CB:36);

(4)    Mr Rodrigo Pintos-Lopez, chief of staff to Mr Pesutto from 13 March 2023 to 3 March 2024 (CB:37; CB:38);

(5)    Mr David Southwick MP, Liberal Member for Caulfield in the Victorian Legislative Assembly and Deputy Leader of the Opposition since December 2022 (CB:39; CB:40);

(6)    Ms Louise Staley, former Liberal Member for Ripon in the Victorian Legislative Assembly and chief of staff to Mr Pesutto since 3 March 2024 (CB:41);

(7)    Mr Alex Woff, Director of Media to Mr Pesutto from 1 March 2023 to 4 March 2024, and Director of Communications to Mr Pesutto since 4 March 2024 (CB:42).

20    Each of them was cross-examined.

THE FACTS

21    Because of the large volume of material that was adduced into evidence, I asked the parties during closing submissions to agree upon a document that set out an Agreed Factual Narrative. This was emailed to chambers after the completion of the trial, but has not yet been electronically filed, and I have used it to assist me, partly, to chart a course through the mountain of evidence.

Mrs Deeming

22    Mrs Deeming was born in 1983 in Timboon, Victoria.

23    She attended a Catholic High School in Beaconsfield, and obtained her Victorian Certificate of Education in 2001.

24    She was awarded a scholarship to study at La Trobe University, and studied there from 2002 to 2005, obtaining a Bachelor of International Relations in 2005.

25    She met her husband in 2003, and they married in October 2005.

26    That same year, or thereabouts, they joined the Liberal Party.

27    In 2006, Mrs Deeming obtained a Post-Graduate Diploma of Education from the University of Melbourne, and from 2006 onwards, she worked at various private and secondary schools, teaching English, Literature, Legal Studies, Philosophy, Science and Psychology. She has four children.

28    In February 2008, upon the birth of their first child, Mr and Mrs Deeming let their membership of the Liberal Party lapse, for want of time.

29    Inspired by a talk which they attended by Mr John Anderson AC, they rejoined the Liberal Party in early 2014. That same year, Mrs Deeming was asked to run for the Liberal Party in the upcoming Victorian state election.

30    She was preselected for the seat of St Albans and ran, unsuccessfully. She achieved 32.5% of the two party preferred vote.

31    In 2018, Mrs Deeming was encouraged by a number of Liberal Party members to run for the number two “spot” for the Western Metropolitan Region in that year’s election. She was not successful, but instead accepted the unwinnable third spot. She campaigned for the Liberal Party in all 11 seats in that region.

32    In 2020, Mrs Deeming won election as a councillor in the City of Melton, where she served until 2022. She gave evidence that she used her position to seek to foster Liberal Party values in the political sphere, as a known Liberal Party member, and “networked with many people and organisations across the political spectrum, including to attempt to build a working political consensus around the protection and reinstatement of sex-based rights”.

33    In March 2022, Mrs Deeming unsuccessfully sought endorsement as the Liberal Party candidate for the Federal Electoral Division of Gorton.

34    She was pre-selected, but not endorsed, because, according to evidence given by Ms Crozier, the then Prime Minister, Mr Scott Morrison, thought her views on some social issues were considered too extreme and politically risky.

35    On 23 July 2022, Mrs Deeming was selected by delegates at a Preselection Convention as the Liberal candidate for the Western Metropolitan Region for the November 2022 Victorian state election.

36    Later that month, the Liberal Party of Australia’s Administrative Committee (Victorian Division) met, including to determine whether to endorse the delegates’ selection of Mrs Deeming.

37    Mrs Deeming was endorsed, but not unanimously. Ms Staley, who at the time was the Member for Ripon, and Mr Michael Kroger, the Immediate Past President of the Division, voted not to endorse her.

38    Mrs Deeming was elected at the 2022 election.

Mr Pesutto

39    Mr Pesutto has practised as a lawyer at various points from 1994. In 1996, he took a year off to become a political staffer, and returned to practice in 1997 until 2011, when he joined the staff of Mr Edward Baillieu AO, the then Premier of Victoria.

40    Mr Pesutto was elected as the Liberal Member for the seat of Hawthorn in the 2014 Victorian state election. Between December 2014 and December 2018, he was the Shadow Attorney-General.

41    Mr Pesutto deposed that while he was Shadow Attorney-General, he was generally aware of Mrs Deeming as becoming active in the Victorian Liberal Party, but that they did not have a lot to do with each other at that time.

42    Mr Pesutto lost his seat in the 2018 election, after which he became a Senior Fellow at the School of Government at the University of Melbourne, and returned to legal practice.

43    In November 2021, he was endorsed as the Liberal candidate for Hawthorn for the 2022 election. He regained his seat at that election.

Events in 2022

Mrs Deeming and Mr Pesutto meet in December

44    In early December 2022, Mrs Deeming and Mr Pesutto had a conversation over coffee at the Watergardens Hotel in Taylors Lakes. Mrs Deeming and Mr Pesutto have slightly different recollections of what they said to each other about issues relating to sex-based rights and safeguards for women and children, and how Mrs Deeming should advocate for such rights without being a “one issue” parliamentarian, but the nuances of those differences are of no moment. Mrs Deeming said her recollection was that Mr Pesutto was trying to gain her support and win her vote to be Leader of the Party, something which Mr Pesutto accepted in cross-examination.

45    Following that meeting, on 6 December 2022 Mrs Deeming sent Mr Pesutto a video of an excerpt from a Senate inquiry interaction between her and Greens Senator Janet Rice. Mr Pesutto responded saying “Very calmly done Moira. Thanks too for your time and consideration yesterday. I know it’s a tough decision and I appreciated the opportunity. Cheers, JP”. The “tough decision” was no doubt a reference to the leadership issue.

Mr Pesutto elected as Leader of the Victorian Liberal Party

46    On 8 December 2022, there was a party room meeting to vote for the leadership of the Victorian Parliamentary Liberal Party, and Mr Pesutto was elected.

47    After the meeting, Mrs Deeming texted Mr Pesutto, saying, “Congratulations on the win! I’m looking forward to working with you :)”. Mr Pesutto responded, “Likewise Moira. You’ll be great in Parliament. I’ll touch base to organise a time when we can catch up as we discussed over coffee. I hope you enjoyed today. Cheers, JP”.

Mrs Deeming elected as Whip

48    After he was elected Leader, Mr Pesutto suggested that Mrs Deeming apply for the position of Liberal Party Whip in the Legislative Council (CB:2, 62[16]). Under the party’s constitution, the role of Whip is filled by election, by a vote of members of the party who are Members of the Legislative Council.

49    Mr Pesutto testified that he supported her candidacy and that in doing so he was, as he agreed in cross-examination, expressing to the Parliamentary Party that he was “happy to be associated with Mrs Deeming” (Transcript (T) 650.4–8).

50    At a meeting in late December 2022, either Mr Pesutto or Ms Crozier (it is unclear who) nominated Mrs Deeming for the position of Whip. She was unanimously elected.

Mrs Deeming learns of LWS rally

51    In late 2022, Mrs Deeming learned that Ms Keen and SFW would be embarking on an international “Let Women Speak” tour, and that a rally would be hosted in Melbourne on 18 March 2023 (CB:2, 69[40]). Mrs Deeming gave evidence that her “understanding at the time was that SFW was an organisation run by Ms Keen which advocates for the preservation and/or reinstatement of reasonable biological sex-based rights (such as female only bathrooms and changerooms) as well as against the irreversible and harmful medical transitioning practises used on gender non-conforming, autistic and gay minors”; that “the organisation and its goals were mainstream and global, and supported by high profile members of every mainstream political party in the world”; and that SFW coming to Australia “was an opportunity to shine light on these issues” about which she (Mrs Deeming) was passionate.

January – February 2023

52    At some stage after this, Mrs Deeming contacted Ms Keen to introduce herself, and to ask if there was anything she could do to help (CB:2, 70[42]). Ms Keen told her that she already had a Melbourne team organising the LWS rally, but she suggested that Mrs Deeming get in contact with Ms Angie Jones, one of the key organisers, to see if she could help her.

53    On 10 January 2023, Mrs Deeming messaged Ms Jones to see if she could “help out in the background in any way” (CB:2, 70[44(a)]).

54    In January 2023, Mrs Deeming attended a two-day Coalition Conference (CB:1, 8[39]).

55    Either at the conference, or around that time, Mrs Deeming had conversations with Mr Pesutto (CB:1, 8[40], CB:31, 364[3]). They have slightly different recollections of what was said.

56    Mrs Deeming said she again raised with Mr Pesutto her advocacy for sex-based rights. She told him she wanted to advocate for these issues, about which she felt strongly, but that she never wanted to do it in such a way as to cause trouble within the team. She asked if he would meet with her in the near future to give her advice as to how she should advocate for these issues without dividing the team. Mrs Deeming said that Mr Pesutto agreed, but never contacted her to set up a meeting.

57    She also swore that she told Mr Pesutto that she planned on attending Ms Keen’s LWS rally in March 2023; that Mr Pesutto said that he did not know who Ms Keen was; that she encouraged him to look her up; and that it would be good if he met with her, and some of the other women, to hear their views.

58    At some stage after this, Mrs Deeming said she had another conversation with Mr Pesutto in which she again raised that she planned on attending the LWS rally and again invited him to meet Ms Keen, on 18 March 2023, privately before the LWS rally, so he could hear her views and perspectives (CB:1, 8[40]). Mrs Deeming said that Mr Pesutto agreed and asked her to book in the meeting with his office, which she said she did.

59    Mr Pesutto accepted in cross-examination that he had a conversation with Mrs Deeming in which she told him there were people coming to Melbourne and that she may have mentioned Ms Keen and asked whether he could meet with them (T651.14–21). He gave evidence that he did not agree to meet them but rather gave “a non-committal” response to the effect of “[j]ust talk to my office” (T651.23–26). In any event, Mr Pesutto did not meet with Ms Keen before the LWS rally.

60    Between 17 and 24 January 2023, Mrs Deeming and Ms Keen exchanged a series of messages relating to the organisation of the LWS rally in Melbourne.

61    On 4 February 2023, Mrs Deeming and Mr Pesutto attended a “Western Metropolitan Meet & Greet” event. Mr Mundine also attended.

62    During February 2023, Mrs Deeming booked the front steps of Parliament House to be used for the LWS rally (Ex R4); agreed to be registered as an additional police contact for the rally (Ex R2; Court Book Part C – Evidence (CC):125); arranged for the sound equipment (Ex R137; CC:148); and exchanged emails with a company to arrange security for Ms Keen (Ex R5).

63    On 18 February 2023, Mrs Deeming also provided Ms Keen with tables summarising the way in which different attributes were protected by anti-discrimination laws in the Commonwealth and each state and territory, and a table of laws regarding change of sex on birth certificates (T150.30–31; Ex R8).

64    Mrs Deeming delivered her maiden speech in Parliament on 21 February 2023 (CB:1, 6 [33]). Mr Pesutto attended. Despite it being referred to on many occasions during the trial, the content of her speech was not in evidence.

65    The parties have a different take on how the speech was received.

66    Mrs Deeming’s husband gave unchallenged evidence that he attended the maiden speech and saw the gallery was full of her supporters, and that it was “as diverse a group of people as you could imagine – Christians, Muslims atheists, lesbians and gay men, and detransitioners”, as well as members of the Liberal and Labor parties, and the Greens (CB:4, 118[37]).

67    Mrs Deeming pointed to what she submitted was “an overwhelming weight of evidence to show that [her maiden speech] was positively received”, as follows:

(a)    Ms Heath sent her supportive texts saying, “Seriously!!!! You!!!! Rock!!!!” (Ex A98; CC:156) and “You were outstanding yesterday!!! I’m still on a high. My family want the link when you get it” (Ex A107; CC:174);

(b)    Ms Beverley McArthur MLC (Liberal Member for the Western Victoria Region in the Legislative Council) sent her a text message (Ex A99; CC:157) saying, “Wonderful speech. Congrats. It was fabulous”;

(c)    Dr Bach sent her a text message (Ex A59; CC:158) that said, “Amazing and powerful speech”;

(d)    Mr Chris Crewther MP (Liberal Member for Mornington in the Legislative Assembly) sent her a text message (Ex A100; CC:159) saying, “Well done on your maiden speech today. I was able to get to the last three-quarters of it. It was very strong, and said a lot of what many people are likely thinking, but are afraid to speak. Well done!”;

(e)    Mr Nick McGowan MLC (Liberal Member for the North-Eastern Metropolitan Region in the Legislative Council) sent her a text message (Ex A108; CC:175) saying, “superstar!”;

(f)    Mrs Deeming’s staffer, Mr Paul Lassig, sent her an email on 23 February 2023 saying, “So many people have called into [sic] support you. Messages streaming in from everywhere” (Ex A110; CC:178);

(g)    At a meeting held on 19 March 2023 (which I will address in detail below):

(i)    Mr Southwick said, “95% of that speech was amazing. Brilliant. Amazing. Unbelievable. It was one of the best speeches. And then you wanted to frame it that way, you have chosen to frame it that way” (Ex A2, lines 781–783); and

(ii)    Mr Pesutto described it as a “good speech” (Ex A2, line 784).

(h)    In his affidavit, Mr Pesutto gave evidence he thought “it started as a great speech” but “then took a turn when towards the end Mrs Deeming made” what he described as “various controversial statements in relation to transgender people and sex-based rights” (CB:30, 332[29]).

(i)    Ms Crozier gave evidence that she “personally thought [Mrs Deeming’s] speech was fine and congratulated her on it” (CB:34, 412[20]).

(j)    Mrs Deeming gave evidence that:

(i)    she received many emails from members of the public which her staffers told her “were overwhelmingly positive” and had been sent “by people across the political spectrum” (CB:1, 6[34]) (some of these emails are in evidence at Ex A113; CC:184);

(ii)    she received many messages, including on Facebook, which praised her speech and were otherwise supportive (CB:1, 6[35]) (some of these messages are in evidence at Ex A112; CC:183); and

(iii)    her speech was posted online “and went viral” and that she received positive comments and feedback online where videos of the speech had been uploaded (CB:1, 6[36]) (for example, positive comments about Mrs Deeming’s maiden speech in response to a YouTube video about it are Ex A114; CC:188);

(k)    Mrs Deeming posted a Facebook post about her speech on 22 February 2023 (Ex A101; CC:166) which received hundreds of positive responses (which are Ex A102; CC:167);

(l)    Mrs Deeming published a tweet about her speech on 22 February 2023 (Ex A103; CC:168) which received at least 87 positive responses (which are Ex A104; CC:169);

(m)    Ms Wong gave evidence that she posted a tweet with an excerpt of a recording of Mrs Deeming’s speech, which received 2600 “likes”, was “reposted” 750 times, and received 77 “comments” which were “overwhelmingly supportive” of Mrs Deeming (CB:29, 318–319[9]–[12]). (A copy of a selection of those comments is at CC:171);

(n)    WFA also posted a Facebook post about Mrs Deeming’s speech (Ex A105; CC:172), which received approximately 1300 comments which were positive towards Mrs Deeming (Ex A106; CC:173).

68    Mr Pesutto, on the other hand, sought to emphasise at trial what he described as the “widespread negative media coverage” of the maiden speech in The Age newspaper and other mainstream publications. He cited and produced two articles that he said he saw at the time (“New Liberal MP uses first speech to slam equality ‘taken to extremes”’ (The Age, 21 February 2023) (Ex R140); and “Premier hits back at new MP’s transgender comment” (news.com.au, 22 February 2023) (Ex R141)).

69    On 22 February 2023, Mrs Deeming and Mr Pesutto exchanged a number of text messages about arranging to meet that day. They arranged to meet at 7.15pm. Shortly before their scheduled meeting, Mr Pesutto was informed that Mrs Deeming was out at dinner with other MPs and sent her a message at 7.14pm, which said, “I’m in my office Moira. Did you still want to meet?” Mrs Deeming responded at 7.23pm, “It’s ok I’m sorry” (Ex R546; Ex A109).

70    On 23 February 2023, documents from Mrs Deeming’s Melton City Council email account were obtained and publicly released pursuant to a freedom of information (FOI) request made by Sex Work Law Reform Victoria.

71    That same day, Mrs Deeming met with Ms Crozier and Mr Pesutto, following publication in the Herald Sun newspaper of an article critical of her, apparently based on the content of some of those emails.

72    Mrs Deeming secretly recorded the meeting.

73    The audio recording is Ex R73. The agreed transcript of it is Ex R72.

74    These are the relevant parts of what was said (errors in the original):

JP [Mr Pesutto]: The media wanna tear us up big time over the stories in the Herald Sun today and the stuff in the media recently. Um we’ve got Danny Pearson on the ropes but that’s now been washed away. Um I suppose I wanted to have an initial conversation to see how we’re going to deal with these serious issues because I know that there are deeply held views and I’ve said to you and said to others that I’d never ask anybody to change their views but this is what we’re gonna get hit with every time we go out. I can’t send anybody out now without issues around you coming up. Just went out there yesterday to smash Pearson um and the press conference immediately or very soon turned to you. I’ve gotta go out today and I’ve gotta face a press pack where I would have liked to have been talking about Danny Pearson resigning. I’m gonna have to put that off. Um so, I know we all come in here with views and I would never ask anyone to change their views and I mean that but we’re gonna have to work out how we do this in a way which allows the party to reach out broadly across the cross section of the community and win elections. We just can’t do it. We we will just get smashed and I can’t see if if we don’t have a way of working through these issues I just don’t see how we’re gonna do it in a way where we can win seats across the board and form government. Um so I wanted to have an initial chat because I think what I’m gonna get attacked with today is that um we hate and I know you’ll have something to say on this but the the line they’re going to run is that we support harmful speech, we hate same sex transgender people, we hate transgender people, we you know we’re um we’re fiercely opposed to um anyone in that community. Now I know you have views on that but we’re gonna, we’re gonna need to come up with something because um I’m gonna get torn apart and and not just me everyone is. No shadow will be able to go out there and face the media on issues that we actually want to talk about until we find a way just to say okay people are entitled to their views um---

MD [Mrs Deeming]: I would very much like it if none of you would let it stand when they say what do you think about Moira’s anti-trans views. I don’t have anti-trans views I don’t have homophobic views. No one has ever been able to come up with any evidence that I do and yet I’m labelled with those words.

JP: Yeah they’re certainly picking apart, I mean I I haven’t had a chance to go through all the emails um---

MD: Which emails?

JP: Uh the emails that are referred to in the Herald Sun um---

…

So I think, I think we need to put something out like that to calm it down because um they’re, they’re in a---

GC [Ms Crozier]: frenzy

JP: ---the media pack. Um it’s almost like I, I wish I could cancel question time ‘cause they’re not gonna be the slightest bit interested in what we asked about this and so um I think that---

MD: We have a good argument and it’s better than Moira has those views. I don’t have homophobic or transphobic views.

JP: Okay. We---

MD: There is no evidence that I have those views. All they have got is me asking questions about what does the law mean and me saying can we not find a different way to balance the laws so that we can look after transgender people as well as protect single sex rights. That is all I’ve ever done and also I have questioned the, the automatic affirmation processes. They’ve been, they have been questioned all around the world. There’s gonna be an inquiry coming whether anyone likes it or not. Now in terms of whatever you wanna say on those issues agree or not I would never let it stand. I would never let it stand. If they say what do you think about her transphobic views and you say oh well she has views that are different to mine that will enrage me at no end. I don’t have transphobic views and you should defend me. I’ve never said anything transphobic or hateful I’ve never said anything homophobic. My biggest fans are gay people and trans people. They were in my audience.

…

MD: You, but even for you even not defending me it’s like you’re admitting there’s someone in our party with transphobic views and we can’t get rid of them because of free speech.

JP: But Moira you know how this debate is it’s feverish. People take signals. So right now unless I go out there and assure people they are gonna think things and I, I---

MD: What would your vision of ins-, like reassuring people be?

JP: That no matter who you are because they don’t think that about you. No matter what you say they don’t think that about you.

…

MD: I think they’re gonna do it because they smell blood in the water because no one’s coming up with a strong response. If we just bit back and said actually, not a single homophobic or transphobic thing was said. You name the one thing that was said. They’ve got nothing. I said nothing bad.

GC: In their eyes though it is being that, in their eyes as John said it is, it is one dimensional. They’re not, they’re not taking on board. I mean I haven’t read the 100 emails but I’m getting emails.

MD: I’m getting emails of support.

GC: Well that’s alright I’m not. I’m getting the others where the 100 emails to Council [?]---

MD: Yeah because they want you all to fold and act like it’s homophobic and transphobic just to care about single sex spaces which is absurd and internally incoherent. They are, the trans and the gays they’re opposed. They’re telling lesbians that they have to date biological men it’s rape culture. You can easily win this argument you can easily turn it back against them. It’s up to you whether you’re going to.

JP: Yeah. I, I don’t accept that. I think you’ve gotta live in in the real world Moira and we, I, I just don’t think you see what a train yeah coming our way. We will not be able to define ourselves as anything other than a party focused on these issues and I, I’ve, I’ve never said that I wanted anyone to change their views but I’ve gotta tell you that’s all we’re gonna get defined as.

…

GC: Well that’s your view and I had a view and I have a strong view about medical intervention on children and I made that very clear in my debate. However, we’re at this point where we’ve got a very big issue for our party as John has said and that’s what we need to work through now.

MD: I don’t know what you’re asking of me and what you’re telling me that you’re going to do.

JP: Well I’ve still gotta formulate my language because it’s gonna be one mean press conference. They are going to try to tear me to shreds um and they’re gonna use it as my test on whether the party’s a broad based party and this and that. It doesn’t matter what we might finesse in here they are going to try and tear not just me the party.

GC: Oh all of us.

JP: In a week where we had pear-, we’ll, we’ll see what happens. The government is all putting all guns blazing into making that press conference. Andrews has come out calling on me today.

MD: I can get you not today but you know like I can get you a row of lesbians to stand around you and back you up in a press conference. I can get you a bunch of parents like I’m just saying.

JP: Yeah. So Moira what I’m going to do is I’m just gonna do a bit more planning um and I might need you just to come and have a chat so I can go over what I’m gonna say or propose to say um but we’ve just gotta be in communication this afternoon. Um these things aren’t as simple as just putting someone out here or someone had to stand with it. It, it’s as you well know you’ve been around politics now a while uh it doesn’t quite work like that. Um they’ve got a narrative they’re trying to validate and they’re going to try---

…

JP: Well um this was the first chat and I think we’re gonna need another one uh before I go out. Um and I just wanted to get your sense of things. And [?]---

MD: My sense of things is you are not as vulnerable as you feel that you are. You think they’re gonna find something. There’s nothing.

JP: It’s not just that. This is, this is narrative shaping stuff [?].

…

JP: ---[?]. And I was gonna call on a minister today to resign in less than an hour about an hour I was gonna call on a minister to resign which I wouldn’t and don’t ever plan to do lightly. And I’m, well that’s actually [?] ‘cause the press pack just don’t wanna talk about it they’re not interested, they’re interested in us. Um and you know what I, what I just wanna do is try and shift us as a team onto the issues that are gonna win us the seats where we need to win and then we can you know implement an agenda that we can be proud of but if I’m going out there every day talking about these things I can tell you all ministers shadow ministers or any of us we’re gonna find that really hard. And you know Labor has 56 seats so we’ve got a big job to state the obvious.

75    Later that day, Mr Pesutto held a press conference. A transcript of it is Ex A111; CC:180. The stated purpose of the press conference was for Mr Pesutto to make statements and take questions about an issue relating to Mr Danny Pearson MP (a Minister in the Labor Andrews government), which he did. A considerable part of the press conference was, however, taken up with questions from journalists about Mrs Deeming’s “views”. It concluded as follows:

JOURNALIST: Can I just clarify, do you condemn Moira Deeming’s views?

[MR] PESUTTO: I don’t agree with those views.

Everybody knows I’m a very inclusive leader. I believe in a Victoria where all Victorians have an opportunity to reach their full potential no matter what their background.

I’ll let Moira speak to her views but my position on these issues is clear and has been for a long time. Everybody knows me and that I’m a modern progressive liberal who believes in these values and I’ll make sure that under my leadership we will be a strong voice for all Victorians no matter what their background.

8 to 17 March 2023

76    Mrs Deeming gave a speech in Parliament on 8 March for International Women’s Day, in which she said she would be attending the LWS rally and invited the Minister for Women, Ms Natalie Hutchins MP, to attend (CB:1, 7[37]). The speech explained in a summary way Mrs Deeming’s views about “sex-based rights”:

My adjournment matter is also for the Minister for Women. First of all, I would like to note that on this International Women’s Day it is my honour to be a part of the first ever Legislative Council to have a majority of female MPs. In many ways we women of the upper house are treading a path opened up for us by Dame Enid Lyons, who was the first woman elected to the House of Representatives and who was also a proud member of the Liberal Party.

However, I must also note with sadness the scandalous fact that women’s rights have actually gone backwards in this state. Many of the hard-won rights that women have fought for so that we could fully and equally participate in public life over the course of the last 100 years are lost. We no longer have the right to female-only public toilets, change rooms and refuges, and all those so-called affirmative action measures like gender quotas, scholarships and grants that were supposed to be just for women are lost now too. Female-only sports leagues, which gave so many young women, me included, access to fair and fun sporting competition are now also lost. Females have lost the right - the basic right - to associate exclusively with each other. We are not allowed to have female-only gyms, and even lesbians are not allowed to have female-only dating apps. Violent male sexual offenders are housed with vulnerable female prisoners. In fact there is a vulnerable group of women in my area, in the Dame Phyllis Frost correctional centre, who have reached out to me, to the government and to the media, crying out for help because they are scared and they are vulnerable and they look around the world and they see what has happened to other women in prisons where violent male rapists have been housed.

Why has this situation happened? It is because the government cannot seem to crack the code of what the word ‘woman’ actually means. Thankfully, I have the formula: ‘woman’ is a noun and it refers to an adult human female. We are also losing the right to even speak up and disagree about this. We are labelled vile. We are labelled bigots. But it is not hateful to ask for sex-based rights. They are, after all, originally a category of human rights. Will the Minister for Women Natalie Hutchins let women speak to her and join us on the steps of Parliament on 18 March for the listening post and actually hear what women have to say on this issue?

77    Following Mrs Deeming’s speech, there was an exchange between Dr Bach and Mrs Deeming as they were leaving the Legislative Assembly Chamber.

78    Incredibly, the parties included in the Agreed Factual Narrative their disagreement about the contents of this exchange.

79    Dr Bach said in his affidavit that, following Mrs Deeming’s speech, she approached him and said, “Sorry. That was the last time” (CB:32, 392[9]). He gave evidence that he “understood” her comments “to be an apology for stepping out of line with her speech in a way that was contrary to the interests and stated position of the Party”.

80    Mrs Deeming said she said to Dr Bach words to the effect of, “Don’t worry; that’s the last one for the year” (CB:2, 68[36]) and that she meant “the last women’s rights event for the year”.

81    Quite how it could be imagined that their differing views about the meaning of some passing remark made by Mrs Deeming to Dr Bach could have any bearing on any serious and substantial issue in this proceeding escapes me.

82    On 11 March, Dr Bach gave an interview to Joy FM. The recording of this interview is Ex R548 and a transcript of the recording is Ex R549.

83    During the interview, Dr Bach was asked about Mrs Deeming’s comments that something called “the Safe Schools program” had been devised by “paedophilia apologists”. Dr Bach said in cross-examination that “paedophile” is a toxic, dreadful, homophobic and common trope used to describe members of the LGBT community and transgender people (T909.44–45, T919.43–44, T925.46–47, T926.14–15, T928.18).

84    The same day, Mrs Deeming published the following tweet (Ex R16; CC:215):

85    On 14 March, Mrs Deeming published the following tweet (Ex R15; CC:243):

86    Also on 14 March, Mrs Deeming sent an email to the Department of Parliamentary Services regarding security at the LWS rally (Ex R13; CC:242).

87    On 15 March, Mr Woff sent a WhatsApp message to Mr Johnston informing him that Mrs Deeming was attending the LWS rally (“Anti-trans rally on the front steps tomorrow, Moira attending”) (Ex A36; CC:246).

88    A series of articles were published in the media about Ms Keen and other LWS rallies that were conducted in Sydney, Brisbane and Perth between 10 and 14 March 2023.

89    On 10 March, the Daily Mail Australia published an article entitled “Cops on high alert as controversial UK women’s rights campaigner who has been slammed as ‘transphobic’ prepares to give speeches on tour of Australia” regarding Ms Keen’s upcoming rally in Sydney (Ex R12). Among other things, it quoted a group called “Pride in Protest” saying that it would be protesting Ms Keen’s “vile bigotry” and that “[t]his far right politics needs to be stopped”. It reported that Ms Keen allegedly posed with a campaigner who celebrated Winnie Mandela’s death, and had said access to abortion and contraceptives need to be rolled back for children and teenagers. It also reported that she has spoken alongside someone called Christopher Barcenas, who was said to be a member of the “Proud Boys” and present at the 6 January 2021 Capitol riots in Washington DC. It quoted Ms Keen purportedly saying, “In today’s money, because being transphobic means that you say ‘a woman doesn’t have a penis’, and probably I am transphobic”. Ms Keen is also reported as saying she “does nothing to invite controversy” but she’s “so influential, trouble follows her.”

90    On 11 March, the Sydney LWS rally was the subject of an article in The Weekend Australian, entitled “Protesters clash at anti-trans rally in Sydney” (Ex R329). The article said, among other things, that members of trans advocacy groups chanted, “Posie Paker you can’t hide, you’ve got Nazis on your side”.

91    On 13 March, the Brisbane LWS rally was the subject of an article in The Courier Mail, called “Controversial UK activist Kellie-Jay Keen leads Brisbane protest” in which Ms Keen was reported as saying that she does not “think trans is a thing”, and described it as a “dirty fetish” and a “cult” (Ex R175). The article included quotes from counter protesters who said the far right “turn out in droves to support” Ms Keen. It also reported that counter protestors detailed links Ms Keen had with “Proudboy activists, Hungarian politician and Holocaust denier Hans Lysglimt Johansen, Canadian white-supremacist Jean-François Gariépy and American talk show host Tucker Carlson.”

92    On 14 March, the Perth rally was the subject of an article in The West Australian, called “LGBTQI in Perth protest over visiting anti-trans activist Kellie-Jay Keen” (Ex R330). It was reported that LGBTQI protesters shouted, “Posie Parker you can’t hide, you have nazis on your side”. The article went on to say, “It is unclear whether the reference to nazis by protesters referred to Ms Keen’s appearance in videos with white nationalists or an event she organised in January, at which one of the speakers quoted Adolf Hitler…”

93    Mrs Deeming spent a little time on Twitter (now known as X) reading and responding to tweets the night before the LWS rally. Mr Pesutto refers to these tweets at RCS Schedule A [11.15]–[11.23] and RCS Schedule C [5]–[16], and says they show that Mrs Deeming knew about alleged links between Ms Keen and the “far right” before the rally. For example, one Twitter user posted, “Why are [you] ignoring her [Ms Keen] associating with far right groups [Proud Boys] that were involved in the January 6th Capitol riot?” to which Mrs Deeming replied, “You can hold me to account for the policies I advocate for, not for any other views held by other people, on the basis that I “associated” with them. That’s ridiculous …” (RCS Schedule A [11.21]).

18 March 2023

The LWS rally

94    On 18 March, Mrs Deeming attended the LWS rally in Melbourne, which was held on the steps of Parliament House.

95    A detailed narrative and pictorial chronology of the LWS rally, as agreed between the parties, which runs to 58 pages, is set out in a document entitled “Agreed Chronology of the Let Women Speak Rally”, emailed to chambers (with leave) after the completion of the trial (but not yet electronically filed).

96    The sources for that chronology were:

(a)    the unchallenged evidence of Mr Fernando, a videographer and independent journalist who filmed the LWS rally, in his affidavit dated 27 May 2024 (at CB:7), and its exhibit “RF-1” (RF-1);

(b)    the first audio-visual recording of the LWS rally filmed by Mr Fernando using a high-definition single-lens camera which was mounted to a handheld camera mount (the Fernando HD footage) (Ex R180);

(c)    the second audio-visual recording of the LWS rally filmed by Mr Fernando using an iPhone which was directly streamed via Facebook Live to his Facebook page (the Fernando stream) at page 1 of RF-1 and at CC:254;

(d)    the audio-visual recording taken by Ms Keen which was livestreamed on and then subsequently uploaded to her YouTube page (the Keen footage) (Ex A137); and

(e)    the audio-visual recording entitled “Let Women Speak Melbourne 2023 Highlights” published on YouTube by “The Unshackled” (the Unshackled footage) (Ex R522).

97    I set out below a summary of the key events of the LWS rally, which is drawn from the agreed chronology.

98    At approximately 11.42am, Mr Fernando approached the north end of Spring Street where a police line had formed (the north police line) (CB:7, 147[11]). He observed that a group of a dozen men dressed in black approached the north police line (CB:7, 147[11]). They were carrying an Australian flag and a rolled-up banner.

99    Mr Fernando gave evidence that around this time he observed that “a large group of counter protesters had formed on Bourke Street” (the Bourke Street protesters) (CB:7, 147[15]).

100    At around 11.43am, the men in black (who were referred to in the agreed chronology as the Nazis) stood in a line opposite the north police line and unfurled a banner which read “Destroy Paedo Freaks” (the banner), which was displayed towards the south end of Spring Street. The crowd could be heard chanting, “Fuck off Nazis, fuck off” (CB:7, 147 [13]; Fernando HD footage at 2.45–3.00).

101    At approximately 11.55am, Mr Fernando heard “police sirens and loud drumming coming from the north end of Spring Street” (CB:7, 148[19]). A large number of protesters carrying red flags (described by the parties as the Socialist Alternative protesters) emerged from the far north end of Spring Street (CB:7, 148[21]). The police formed a further line (the far north police line) preventing the Socialist Alternative protesters from entering the Parliamentary precinct (Fernando HD footage at 14.00–14.12).

102    At around that time, the Nazis faced the north, displayed the banner, and performed the Nazi salute in the direction of the Socialist Alternative protesters (CB:7, 148[23]; Fernando HD Footage at 14.15).

103    Between approximately 11.57am and 12.04pm, the Socialist Alternative protesters started chanting, among other things, “Posie Parker you can’t hide; you’ve got Nazis on your side” and “fuck off, Nazis, fuck off” (Fernando HD footage at 15.56–17.30, 20.20–21.01, 21.55–22.55).

104    At 12.03pm, Ms Jones (using the handle @angijones) made the following post on Twitter (CC:742):

105    At approximately 12.06pm, Ms Keen commenced livestreaming the Keen footage (Ex A137).

106    At 12.07pm, the official page of Let Women Speak (using the handle @StandingforXX) posted the following on Twitter (CC:743):

107    At approximately 12.09pm, Mrs Deeming and Ms Keen walked from the car park to the steps of Parliament through the Parliament House annex (Keen footage at 3.00). Ms Keen then entered the footpath on the south end of Spring Street and was escorted by private security and police to the steps of Parliament House (Keen footage at 4.30–5.30). Ms Keen was then seen to emerge from the steps of Parliament House with Mrs Deeming.

108    At approximately 12.15pm, Ms Keen commenced setting up cameras and microphones in front of a large banner that read “#let women speak” (Fernando HD footage at 34.40).

109    At around the same time, the Nazis were standing on the north end of Spring Street, behind the far north police line, displaying the banner, facing south. The Nazis, whilst maintaining a line, began to approach the Parliamentary precinct.

110    The Nazis then turned to face the Socialist Alternative protesters on the north end of Spring Street and displayed the banner in their direction.

111    At approximately 12.18pm, Ms Keen mounted the first few steps of the south end of Parliament House and began speaking into a microphone in front of the #let women speak banner, facing west towards the LWS rally attendees and the Bourke Street protestors.

112    Seventeen LWS rally attendees, including Mrs Deeming, then took turns to speak in front of the #let women speak banner, from approximately 12.24pm until 1.42pm. On two occasions, the speeches were interrupted by “intrusions” from counter protestors.

113    At approximately 12.33pm, the Nazis started to mount the steps of Parliament House. As they stood on the steps, two people in front of them displayed a banner that read:

PROTECT OUR CHILDREN

STOP THE MORAL DECAY OF SOCIETY

SILENCE IS NO LONGER AN OPTION

114    At approximately 12.36pm, Mr Thomas Sewell (who, as was accepted by both parties, was the leader of the Nazi protestors) was standing on the footpath at the base of the steps of Parliament House on the north end of Spring Street, whilst the other Nazis were standing on the fifth or sixth row of the steps of Parliament House. Mr Sewell could be heard to be speaking through a megaphone. He said:

We are here to destroy the fools that are destroying our children. We are not here to conserve. We are revolutionaries. What that means is that, it is not good enough for the politicians to allow this to happen. It is not good enough for the schools to teach sodomy and globalism to our children. The reason why we are here is because it is not good enough what’s currently going on under our political solution. It is our belief, that a revolution is coming.

It is our belief that these communists, paedophiles and trannies have infiltrated every single institution of this country across the West. They are not just coming for your children, they are coming for everyone. They cannot breed. They have castrated themselves, chemically, psychologically and spiritually. We wish for the survival and preservation of our people. We are not here to have a conversation with these people. We are not here to make a compromise with these communists. We are not here to be nice and friendly. We are revolutionaries and we are here to destroy the sick and rotted society that has left us all out to dry.

115    Mr Sewell then engaged in a “call and response” with the Nazis behind him, who chanted while repeatedly performing the Nazi salute.

116    During Mr Sewell’s speech (from approximately 12.36pm to approximately 12.38pm), Ms Keen could be heard speaking concurrently about the second intrusion at the LWS rally.

117    At approximately 12.48pm, the Nazis dismounted the steps of Parliament House and began to walk towards the north end of Spring Street. A police officer stopped them and led them to cross Spring Street towards the footpath near Bourke Street (Fernando HD footage at 1.06.43).

118    Two more police officers approached the Nazis, who then began to perform the Nazi salute pointed in a northerly direction, where the Socialist Alternative protesters were still gathered (Fernando HD footage at 1.06.54).

119    The Nazis, as they turned to walk south on Spring Street, continued to perform the Nazi salute towards the protesters that had gathered on and around Bourke Street (Keen footage at 1.07.11).

120    Just after 1pm, the Socialist Alternative protesters emerged behind the Bourke Street protesters, further west on Bourke Street. They were seen to approach the Bourke Street protesters and ultimately join them in standing on Bourke Street opposite Parliament House.

121    At around this time, police on horseback, who were previously on the far north police line, began to reinforce a line of police along Bourke Street (Fernando HD footage at 1.20.48).

122    At approximately 1.16pm (Keen footage at 1.10.01), Mrs Deeming commenced her speech which concluded at approximately 1.18pm (Keen footage at 1.12.06).

123    Mrs Deeming read a message from a Muslim friend of hers as follows:

Alright. My name’s Moira Deeming I’m a newly elected MP in the Victorian Parliament. People told me that I only got elected because nobody knew what I thought, but I’ve doing this for fifteen years with my friends in the Greens party and the Labor party and every party conceivable. Today, I’m actually going to read a message from a Muslim friend of mine who was too afraid to be here because of behaviour like that. She has said that she came to Australia because she knew that in Australia human rights were advocated for strongly and she would have protection in Australia. She thought that Australia was a paradise, especially for herself as a woman. And she thought that in Australia everybody, regardless of religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation any other belief of any other kind they’ve got to respect each other’s beliefs and boundaries. And now she is devastated to find out that she has less rights in Australia than she did back home. She has said that boundaries are the emotional, mental and physical fences of every human that are erected in order to protect and maintain our psychological and physical needs, whether it be a human or an animal and if an animal can understand and respect boundaries, why can’t they? She’s seeking that the government will do their job and stand up for the rights that she was promised when she came to Australia lawfully and legally. And then she said, “if the LGTBQI can have their rights, that’s fine, but why does it involve taking away everybody else’s rights?” And she wants to say a big thank you to everybody out here today and especially Kellie-Jay. Thank you.

124    At approximately 1.42pm Ms Keen began making closing remarks, and at around 1.47pm she ended the livestream of the rally.

125    I have rewatched the video evidence of those events.

126    It is fair to say that depicts chaotic scenes.

127    Mr Fernando’s footage, in particular, continuously weaved between the various groups of protestors and counter protestors. There was a cacophony of yelling, chanting, clapping, banging of drums and saucepans, rattling of tambourines, blowing of whistles and wailing of sirens. Numerous people spoke (often simultaneously) on megaphones. The noise largely seemed to emanate from the Bourke Street protestors, but it is sometimes difficult to tell from Mr Fernando’s footage because he was constantly moving around.

128    Protestors waved flags of different kinds, and held homemade signs and banners promoting various agendas. Police officers traversed Spring Street on foot and on horseback. Mr Fernando captured a number of altercations and various exchanges of angry words. And while the lines formed by the police mostly separate the various groups, there remained a flow of people wandering up and down Spring Street.

After the rally

129    At 2.20pm, a journalist sent to Mr Southwick two links with screenshots. The first was a screenshot of a video of Nazis performing the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament House. The second was vision of police walking Nazis through the area around the steps of Parliament House (Ex R181).

130    Mr Southwick then telephoned Mrs Deeming.

131    They gave different evidence about what precisely was said, but Mr Southwick and Mrs Deeming did agree that Mr Southwick said that he had seen photos of the Nazis performing the Nazi salute in Spring Street; that the matter was serious; and that Mrs Deeming needed to denounce it in a press release.

132    Mrs Deeming deposed that after her conversation with Mr Southwick, she told Ms Keen about his request. She gave evidence that she asked Ms Keen “if we could find a way to make it clear those men had nothing to do with us in a way that was not degrading and did not deflect the focus from the purpose of the rally.” She further deposed that Ms Keen “suggested we could do a livestream where we focused on the women and how brave they had been and what a success the day had been and that we could mention the idiot Nazis in passing as having been unwelcome intruders, but that she would not be issuing a grovelling media statement.”

133    After speaking to Mrs Deeming, at 2.55pm Mr Southwick exchanged text messages with Mr Brad Battin MP, then Shadow Police Minister (Ex R182; CC:264). He then spoke to Mr Battin and they agreed to issue a joint statement condemning the Nazis.

134    Mr Southwick then telephoned Mr Woff. They had a brief conversation about a draft press release. At 3.04pm Mr Woff sent a WhatsApp message to Mr Southwick with the draft press release (Ex A138; CC:265), which read:

Todays [sic] incident on the steps of Parliament are a shock to every Victorian who values our inclusive, tolerant and multicultural community.

Right wing extremists are becoming more aggressive and emboldened and despite recent efforts to tighten laws to protect the community from such intolerance, this behaviour continues seemingly without consequence.

This behaviour is simply acceptable [sic]. We cannot allow neo-Nazis to goose step and salute on the front steps of our democracy with impunity.

I have formally raised this issue with Victoria Police for potential breach of anti-discrimination legislation and will continue to push for those involved to be held to account.

135    At 4.41pm, Ms Jones published a post on Twitter which read, “Nazis and women want to get rid of paedo filth. Why don’t you?” (the Jones tweet). The Jones tweet was part of an exchange, which read in full:

136    At 4.42pm, Mr Southwick posted a tweet condemning the Nazis, as follows: “Today’s incident on the steps [sic] Parliament House is an affront to every Victorian who values our inclusive, tolerant and multicultural community. The behaviours today by neo-Nazis are a deliberate attempt to incite hatred and violence and are nothing short of sickening” (Ex R185; CC:270).

137    At 5.37pm, Mr Josh Burns MP, the Federal Labor Member for the seat of McNamara, posted a tweet with a screenshot of a media statement headed “Statement on Neo-Nazis in Melbourne CBD” (Ex R186):

The ugly alliance between anti-trans bullies and neo-Nazis on display in the city today was extremely confronting.

Both groups seek to bully and blame minority groups in their dark ideology. Scapegoating minorities is their business model, and it has no place in Australia.

History showed that minorities, including the LGBTIQA+ community, have been targeted before. It’s nasty, its bigoted and it should be called out.

The brazen marching with neo-Nazi salutes in front of the Victorian Parliament is unacceptable. This is a time for us to consider whether tougher laws are needed.

138    At 5.59pm, the joint press release of Mr Southwick and Mr Battin was released to the media by Mr Woff (Ex A141; CC:274). It read as follows:

Today’s incident on the steps [sic] Parliament House is an affront to every Victorian who values our inclusive, tolerant and multicultural community.

The behaviours today by neo-Nazis are a deliberate attempt to incite hatred and violence and are nothing short of sickening.

These shameful individuals and the hateful ideology they push have no place in our state and must never be tolerated.

The Victorian Liberals and Nationals continue to support the frontline officers Victoria Police, who continue to focus on community safety in frequently dangerous and complex situations.

The Andrews Labor Government must join with the Liberals and Nationals to ensure Victoria Police have the powers, resources and training to stamp out these shocking acts of hate.

139    At 6.03pm, Mrs Deeming published the following tweet (Ex A142; CC:275) (18 March tweet):

140    That evening, Ms Keen, together with Mrs Deeming, Ms Jones and Ms Katherine Deves, filmed the livestream which Ms Keen had suggested, starting at 7.46pm. (Ms Deves is a former Federal Liberal Party candidate who also spoke at the LWS rally.) The video was uploaded to YouTube at 8.13pm (Ex A258).

141    That video and a transcript of it were in evidence (Ex R37 and Ex R38 respectively). It was sometimes referred to as “the champagne video”, because each of the women (except Ms Jones) sipped a little champagne during the course of it (it lasts 24 minutes in all).

142    Counsel for Mr Pesutto sought to make much of it during the hearing, so it is necessary to set out the transcript of the relevant exchanges, as follows:

KJK [Ms Keen]: What a day! So I’m here with some evil TERFs [trans-exclusionary radical feminists] uh down under. We’re calling this, I’m calling this TERF talk down under it’s a concept that I’ve come up with [*all laugh*]. I have Angie Jones here, who is the TERF talk down under content deliverer. I’ve got Kathy, Katherine Deves, uh myself I’m Kelly[-Jay] and this is Moira Deeming who’s an MP and we’ve just had an exceptionally interesting um day …

…

Yeah, ah Kath what about you?

KD [Ms Deves]: I thought the speeches today were absolutely magnificent um what some of those women got up, they were shaky when they got off the microphone they were so brave again it was such a varied mix of women, varied mix of experiences and if the people who are the detractors or the media who have been and some of whom have been absolutely just remiss in how they’ve reported this if they actually listened to what the women had to say they’d understand what we’re about so I think this is a fantastic record for history and I’m really proud of everyone who worked to put it together today.

KJK: Yeah me too. I’m particularly I think Australian women are quite funny. I think there was a lot of humour in a lot of the speeches. What about you Moira?

MD [Mrs Deeming]: Look as a newly elected MP it was really interesting for me and vindicating to see women from every single political party uniting over these basic human rights. It was also wonderful to see uh just how protective everybody was of each other, you know we had a couple of people uh become very violent so some trans activists pretended to be a part of our group.

Obviously there was that group of masked men who came in, we didn’t know who they were but we were concentrating on these people at the front and you know one woman was knocked unconscious and taken to hospital. I got kicked in the shins a whole bunch of times.

But they were dealt with within you known under, under, under a minute each, we dealt with them we got rid of them and we just carried on and that’s what we’ll continue to do and it was just a fun day and it was really great.

…

KJK: And let me just say for the record and I’m not speaking for anybody else in this room but if somebody comes and poses a risk to women, I’m kind of all right with a bit of, a little bit of violent kind of pulling them out of the way uh proportionate violence um and getting them out of the way and away from women as a risk.

…

So we had to wrap up that’s why we finished a little bit sort of quick[l]y and we had to really rush the speeches at the end and then obviously there was some other people occupying the steps which I think we all thought we were told by security were antifa because they were all in black with black masks so we thought they were antifa and they were just over there but I think it’s safe to say, there were so many risks, potential risks in our crowd.

…

KJK: But should we talk about, um, to talk about the elephant in the room Moira because you’re going to complain…

MD: Yes.

KJK: …because we had, we’re not when we both got there so we had, we were told that well we both thought that there was antifa um and I was told even putting my uh tripod at the top of the steps there was a very militant, there was a very militant police officer that was like get [off] the steps don’t stand on the steps, don’t stand on the steps, don’t stand the steps. Really wouldn’t let us stand there and we had a permit for where we did stand but there were other people that didn’t have a permit.

MD: Yes so the thing that I found very confusing was that we were assured by the police and as I say, it seems to us while we were there that everything was going well that the police were trying to help us and I think the majority were but when I was alerted to the fact that they were all these masked men coming towards us they were all in black we couldn’t see their faces I thought that the trans rights activists had broken through the line and we’re about to get attacked.

I honestly just thought this is it yep I’m about to, we’re all about to get attacked. Um but the police were very, very calm and you know they had set up a big buffer zone, they had set up you know a boundary but they were talking to these people and letting them stand on the steps and take photos I was told later that they had a banner or something.

You know, but then I was also told later that one of our marshals had stood like this with her arms out to stop them from coming in because like me like most women there we thought that they were antifa, they had broken through the lines we were about to get attacked and the police for some reason that I do not understand, ushered them in let them have photos on the steps next to us and then instead of pushing them back out the same way that they came in, took them right through that the middle of the buffer zone that they had been, you know, at great pains to separate us all um from either side of, they just walked them right through the middle and, and then right as they were in the centre in front of all those cameras they did a Nazi salute and that was horrifying but, you know, that was only a split second because then you know they would continue to be escorted out and so I thought oh good they’ve taken them out but it was only later on I thought why did they even let them in here, what, how were they able to keep all those trans rights activists, the ones who were punching horses, how did they keep all of those people away from us but they just welcomed in and let these people in black masks you couldn’t see their faces, no identifying, um

AJ [Ms Jones]: They looked like black bloc, they did, they looked like black bloc…

MD: You know, there was no symbols. People are saying, you know, why didn’t you tell the Nazis to leave well there was no Nazi symbols on them I thought they were antifa um until they put their hands up like that I thought they were the trans rights activists um and then when they did that you know they were being escorted out and it was over.

KJK: Well the funny thing is as well they shout at me you can’t run you can’t hide you’ve got Nazis on your side and they’re really angry shouting that I’m this thing and this apparent thing that they really hate when they those men did that Nazi salute…

MD: There’s no reaction

KJK: There was no reaction whatsoever, those trans activists didn’t get more angry didn’t shout didn’t get more agres… they didn’t do anything,

MD: It was as if they were saying hello. [*Laughter*]

KJK: Maybe it was that maybe to their friends but um I think it’s very interesting because I think any one of us recognisable women had walked that same bit down there they would have broken through they would have attacked us and I just… something about all of this doesn’t make any sense it feels really off, it feels like they were either… I mean look in the UK we had police impregnating women who were animal rights campaigners right and we, we had those police um infiltrating groups.

I don’t think it’s beyond the wit of anyone to think that that either was uh TRAs dressed up or police or just… something was just off because there wasn’t enough violence between the two men. …

MD: Best case scenario was a massive mistake by the police to let these unidentifiable masked men in because all of us women were terrified.

KJK: Yeah.

MD: We did not understand why they were there. The police had been successfully keeping everyone else away and then all of a sudden there were these terrifying big strong masked men and we didn’t know why they were there and we know now that the police knew that they weren’t with us because they obviously escorted them away from us and away from the protest and uh and that our own marshals had asked them to leave.

KJK: But I don’t so I, I guess it’s not really for us to work out why the police suddenly escorted them away.

MD: Through the middle.

KJK: I mean that’s nuts but I wonder what prompted them to leave because I didn’t really notice them.

AJ: Yeah, they didn’t come near us. We all had our backs to these guys on the on the um steps we had our backs to these blokes and so there’s a few of us milling around once we realized they weren’t a threat we kind of turned our backs and we’ve just got on with it yeah and so the reason that there’s no photos out there of the Nazis with us “the Nazis” inverted commas with us is because they were never with us they were like way over there.

We all had our backs we were facing the opposite direction so when the police marched them out they marched them towards the trans rights activists past the trans rights activists, they saluted at the trans rights activist and the trans rights activists didn’t even blink and kept yelling at us women.

KJK: Yeah.

KD: It’s very strange.

…

KD: … it is really quite viscerally scary and you think… you have those moments where you think my God all I’m doing is standing here saying: women have the right to sex based rights, stop messing with our kids, let us have our freedom of speech and this is the response people need to start waking up to the fact as to how powerful and how dangerous this movement really is I mean as we know they’ve infiltrated our, our institutions Our Judiciary our parliaments our media and so on and the fact that even the police are afraid of their violence I mean we need to ask who, who are the baddies here people because I don’t think it was the group of middle-aged women standing there in our sun hats a few with our husbands listening to other women speak.

KJK: But look that that that won’t stop us uh next stop is wherever I’m going next Tasmania, Hobart, um and then it’s going to be Canberra and then we’re coming to uh New Zealand which will be interesting I’m not even sure goodness knows I don’t think anything can be quite as um Exciting um as today but yeah the speeches from Australian women have just been sublime uh it’s like they’ve been holding their breath for quite some time and so have just come out with the most um wonderful things and the f word said in an Australian accent is particularly wonderful but thank you all of you thank you for your hard work in making this.

MD: Thank you for coming to Australia thank you for coming to Melbourne, we appreciate it.

KJK: Well here’s to us being amazing cheers everyone [*all clink glasses*] and goodbye people at home.

KD: Good evening everyone.

KJK: Bye.

143    That same evening, Mr Pesutto attended the Victorian Multicultural Gala Dinner, together with Mr Southwick and Ms Crozier.

144    At 7.16pm, Ms Staley sent a text to Mr Pesutto with a link to an article in The Australian about the Nazis at Parliament House, which pictured Mrs Deeming but did not name her or identify her as an MP. Ms Staley also sent a screenshot to Mr Pesutto of the pictures in The Australian article, including one of Mrs Deeming, and informed him “Moira Deeming at a rally with neo-Nazis today”, as follows (Ex R189):

145    Ms Staley and Mr Pesutto then exchanged texts. Ms Staley said, “You need to consider expelling [Mrs Deeming] from the Party room for consorting with nazis. You can’t have that link and be elected to government.” Mr Pesutto responded, “Agree”.

146    At 7.21pm, Ms Staley also sent a text message to Mr Southwick to the same effect (Ex A259).

147    From 7.30pm, Mr Pesutto exchanged text messages with Mr Southwick about it (Ex R191; CC:278).

148    At 9.14pm, Mr Matthew Guy MP, Liberal Member for Bulleen in the Legislative Assembly, sent a text message to Mr Pesutto and Mr Southwick (Ex R192; CC:279) volunteering to move an expulsion motion against Mrs Deeming: “Just letting you know that if you want an expulsion motion moved on Deeming, and no one else will do it, I will”.

149    Either that evening or the following morning, Mr Pesutto and Mr Southwick discussed the LWS rally and their views that Mrs Deeming’s attendance was likely to hurt the Liberal Party. In the course of that discussion, Mr Southwick told Mr Pesutto he had spoken to Mrs Deeming about the LWS rally, and had told her that she needed to immediately distance herself from it and the neo-Nazis who attended (CB:30, 337[54]–[55]).

19 March 2023

150    At 7.13am, Ms Jones published the following tweet (Ex A147; CC:291):

151    At 8.25am, Mr Pesutto sent a text message to Mr Pintos-Lopez, who had started in the role of chief of staff to Mr Pesutto a few days earlier, indicating he had spoken to Mr Southwick about meeting with Mrs Deeming at 5pm that day. Mr Pesutto asked Mr Pintos-Lopez over the phone to conduct some research on the LWS rally and what had happened at it (Ex A148; CB:30, 337[65]).

152    At 9.20am, Mr Adam Bandt MP, Federal Member for Melbourne and Leader of the Australian Greens, posted a string of tweets on Twitter (Ex R30; CC:293), which grouped together read as follows:

I’m disgusted by the anti-trans rally in Melbourne yesterday, protected by their allies: saluting neo-Nazis. The banners they march under and the hate they espouse have no place here or anywhere. The rise of far-right extremism and white nationalism has ASIO’s directors ‘gravely concerned’, with the Australian Army today uncovering links to neo-Nazi groups within their own ranks. The alarm bells have been ringing for years. The Government needs to unblock its ears. Footage of police kneeing an anti-fascist protester in the back of the head, whilst making way for neo-Nazis to march & salute down Spring Street is deeply disturbing to watch. This is not Melbourne. Every time a powerful figure in the media or politics uses the trans community as a political football, a masked coward grows more confident. Stop. The words we say matter, so let mine be unequivocal and clear: Trans Lives Matter.

153    Between 9.45am and 10.46am, Mr Fernando published a series of tweets about the LWS rally, some of which embedded footage Mr Fernando had recorded on the previous day. These tweets are referred to at ACS [142] and [145].

154    Shortly after 9.51am, Mr Pesutto, Mr Southwick and Mr Pintos-Lopez had a conference call. Mr Pintos-Lopez deposed that he advised that they should proceed “carefully and methodically”; that they “needed to slow down and not take any action precipitously”; and that they “first needed to gather and understand all the relevant facts”. His affidavit explained as follows (CB:37, 441[17]):

I said words to the effect to Mr Pesutto and Mr Southwick that we needed to manage any political and reputational implications for the Party of Mrs Deeming’s attendance at the Rally and the potential connection between the Rally organisers and the neo-Nazis carefully and methodically. I said that we needed to slow down and not take any action precipitously and that we first needed to gather and understand all the relevant facts. I said words to the effect that any action that the Leadership Team might take needed to be measured and justified. I said that I did not believe that we should do anything other than gather information on the Sunday and that if any action was required, the reason to act needed to be explained to the party room and to the electorate, if necessary, during the week and prior to taking that action if any. I understood from what Mr Pesutto and Mr Southwick said following my giving them that advice that they wished to act that day rather than slowing down as I had advised.

155    At 10.46am, Mr Pesutto sent the following screenshot on WhatsApp to a group called “Leadership Media” (Ex R200; CC:298):

156    At 10.48am, Mr Pintos-Lopez sent a message to Mr Johnston asking him to draft a press release coming from Mrs Deeming “about the Parliament house demonstrations yesterday” and requesting that they have a short call about it (CB:37, 441[20]; Ex R201; CC:299).

157    At 10.59am, Ms Jones published the following tweet (Ex A150; CC:300):

158    At about 11am, Mrs Deeming received a call from Ms Crozier asking her to attend a meeting with the Parliamentary Liberal Party leadership team (which comprised Mr Pesutto, Ms Crozier, Mr Southwick and Dr Bach) at the party’s offices in the Melbourne CBD (CB:1, 13[58]).

159    At 11.11am, the then Premier of Victoria, Mr Daniel Andrews AC, posted a string of tweets on Twitter which grouped together read as follows (Ex R32; CC:301):

I won’t share a photo because they simply don’t deserve the attention. But yesterday, anti-trans activists gathered to spread hate. And on the steps of our Parliament, some of them performed a Nazi salute. I wish it didn’t have to be said, but clearly it does: Nazis aren’t welcome. Not on Parliament’s steps. Not anywhere. They were there to say the trans community don’t deserve rights, safety or dignity. That’s what Nazis do. Their evil ideology is to scapegoat minorities - and it’s got no place here. And those who stand with them don’t, either. So to every trans Victorian, I say this: Our Government will always support you. And we’ll always respect you. Because your rights are not negotiable.

160    At some point after midday, Mr Pintos-Lopez attended the office and commenced research on the LWS rally and its organisers.

161    Around the same time, Mr Riordan and his wife were hosting about 200 people at a lunch at their home in Colac, many of them from the Liberal Party (CB:20, 247[8]; T1145.1–4). Mr Pesutto and Ms Crozier attended.

162    At 12.26pm, when he was being driven to Mr Riordan’s home, Mr Pesutto recorded a draft press release as an electronic note on his mobile phone, about what he referred to as Mrs Deeming’s “resignation”, as follows (Ex A40; CC:303):

On Saturday evening, Victorians saw an abomination on the steps of the Victorian Parliament when Nazi protestors engaged in an affront to the values we should all hold dear as Victorians.

The violence, prejudice and hate that these protestors conveyed by their odious actions will never be acceptable in our state. I condemn them and commit to opposing such hate wherever it may exist.

This afternoon, I met with Moira Deeming MP to discuss the events of Saturday.

Mrs Deeming assured me that she was not involved in the organisation or actions of the Nazi protestors. I have no reason to doubt Mrs Deeming’s account.

Nevertheless, following our discussion, Mrs Deeming tendered her resignation as a member of the Parliamentary Liberal Party. I believe this was an appropriate step for her to take and obviates the need to explore alternatives.

The Liberal Party I joined, and which I am now honoured to lead, must strive to represent all Victorians.

Regardless of religious faith, race, sexual preference, ethnicity or other attribute, Victorians everywhere should know that the Liberal Party is inclusive and can be a voice for them.

No matter what our particular attributes, we all share the abiding bond of an essential humanity.

Equality of opportunity, the benefits to each and all of an enterprising culture, the security that comes from the rule of law, the strength which stems from families and communities that can live together in search of happiness while sharing in our state’s prosperity, must extend to all people who reside in our land.

163    At 12.32pm, Ms Jones posted this tweet as a “reply” to the Jones tweet (Ex A144; CC:287):

164    At 12.40pm, Ms Jones posted a further tweet in reply (Ex A145; CC:289):

165    At approximately 1.50pm, the Australian Jewish Association published a statement on Facebook which relevantly said as follows (Ex A39):

NAZIS CRASH WOMEN’S RALLY IN MELBOURNE – questions raised re police behaviour

Yesterday a “Let Women Speak” rally was held in Melbourne featuring visiting British women’s advocate Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (also known as Posie Parker) as well as local women. This movement is concerned that biological men are undermining the integrity of women’s sport and spaces such as bathrooms.

[Australian Jewish Association] unreservedly condemns the Nazis who invaded the rally. These ugly thugs likely saw an opportunity to hijack the event for their own publicity.

…

The Nazis were condemned by the women’s rally organisers – one contacted AJA in distress explaining what had happened. The “Let Women Speak” organisers had nothing to do with the Nazis.

It is shameful that some politicians and media are now trying to smear this women’s movement with the false accusation of involvement with Nazis.

166    The leadership team was scheduled to meet with Mrs Deeming at 5pm, but she went to the wrong address and ended up being about 20 minutes late (T1146.8–19). While waiting for her, Ms Crozier, Mr Pesutto, Mr Southwick, and Dr Bach met Mr Pintos-Lopez and Mr Johnston.

167    The meeting between the leadership team and Mr Pintos-Lopez and Mr Johnston lasted about 20 minutes. It is not clear on the evidence precisely what occurred or what was discussed, however it seems that Mr Pintos-Lopez gave an account to the others of certain information he had found out, mainly about Ms Keen.

168    At 5.21pm, Mr Pesutto then sent to Mr Johnston the contents of the electronic note he had drafted in the car earlier in the day (Ex A152), set out at [162] above. Mr Johnston then sent the note to Mr Woff (CC:314).

169    After he left the meeting, Mr Johnston telephoned Mr Woff about the draft press release. Mr Woff gave evidence in cross-examination that Mr Johnston told him that “Moira was gone, and he said it’s just a matter of how this plays out, referencing whether she would resign from the Parliamentary Liberal Party or whether John and … the leadership team would move a motion to expel her” (T1177.20–23).

The 19 March meeting

170    At 5.24pm, Mrs Deeming entered the meeting room with Ms Crozier, where Mr Pesutto, Mr Southwick, Dr Bach and Mr Pintos-Lopez were waiting.

171    Mr Southwick then commenced secretly to record the meeting on his mobile phone. His recordings of the meeting are Ex A227 and Ex A228.

172    One might have been excused for thinking that given that every word of the meeting was recorded (in two parts, because there was a break) there would no longer be a dispute about who said what to whom. The parties, however, remained in “dispute … as to the characterisation of the [meeting]” (Agreed Factual Narrative [84]).

173    The first part of the meeting ran for 70 minutes. The transcript of it comprises 30 single spaced pages (Ex A2).

174    I have done my best to distil the relevant extracts from it to a manageable length, as follows:

JP [Mr Pesutto] So Moira, thanks for coming in. I think you know what it’s roughly pertaining to, obviously the events of yesterday. So, look, just wanted to go through the implications of all of that and what it means for us as a party, and as a team wanting to win in 2026. I think I’d start just by some general comments about what I’m trying to do as leader … So, my concerns about yesterday, and I will ask for your, obviously, feedback on this and thoughts on this, is that the arrival of the Nazi – I will call them Nazi protestors, but the whoever they are – I am going to call them that because that that frankly is how everybody sees them, right, the media sees them –

MD [Mrs Deeming] – I think that’s what they are.

JP Yeah. So, the Nazi protestors arrive and whether you like it or not, when the media and everybody looking at it, whether we like it or not, whether we dispute it vehemently or not, when the media see that, they see them attached to you, they see them attached to me, they see them attached to us. And now, we’ve got a problem, a huge problem now, because people think, rightly or wrongly, that we walk in lockstep with Nazi protestors and Nazis. And I’m getting clobbered, not just on social media, I’m getting messages from people now, and that will build, this is not going away this is actually going to, I think, intensify as a story and I say that because I think if you look at, the way that – this is my suspicion – if you look at the way the media is reporting it they are referring only to Katherine [Deves] and they haven’t talked about you yet. But having been around the oval a few times, that’s coming and that’s my feeling. I think Andrews in his tweets today is signalling that this is what their week is going to be about.

…

Now I know you will have a different view, and you can tell us about that and I really want to hear from you about it, but that’s the view, and it’s going to be toxic for us. We will not be able to get any kind of messages up, we will not be able to campaign on anything, we will just be confronted with that wherever we turn up. I think at this stage I might just leave it there. They’re just my general concerns and I really just wanted to hear from you to see what you wanted to say about yesterday because I also need to know from you exactly, and we can work through this in the discussion, exactly what happened. I don’t know whether when the Nazis arrived and you saw them, whether you left, whether you stayed, I’d be interested to know what happened there, but it’s very serious for us. And the damage it will do to us is hard to estimate. And all I’m trying to do with all of us as a team is to try to get us over the line in 2026, I’m actually convinced that we can, but stuff like this will stop us from doing that. So, Moira, I’m just going to leave my opening comments there but I throw over to you, obviously respond as you see appropriate, but I’m keen to know, factually, the presence of the Nazis, and whether there was [sic] any connections there before or after, and what happened when you saw them arrive, because that’s going to come out when the media start digging on this stuff.

MD Very obviously I’m not a Nazi and I don’t support Nazis. They arrived just in black as far as I can tell, they were to the - there somewhere. They were to the left of some big pole. Everyone thought they were the other people that had gotten through the lines. The only footage that I have seen of them, you know doing any – I didn’t find out that they had done the Nazi salute on those steps until after the event. The first time I saw them doing the Nazi salute was when they were being ushered by the police through the middle of the zone. And I was thinking, “oh my gosh, there are Nazis here, that’s terrible, but at least the police are taking them away.”

…

JP Weren’t you involved in the organisation [of the LWS rally]?

MD Right at the end. I can show you text messages. I was not the main organiser. The main organiser was Angie Jones who is a Jewish woman. They’re all left-wing women.

…

Nobody knew who they were. The police weren’t panicking. They said that they would keep everybody away, have a buffer zone, and when they, like when I finally noticed them – I honestly don’t know the time they got there. We were dealing with crazy people right around us, right a [metre] away from us. I mean, the police have said that they didn’t have enough people, that there were all these different groups. The Australian Jewish Association has come out and said that we had nothing to do with it, if I was an organiser, but, you know, the Standing for Women people who, yes, I helped, but I wasn’t – I didn’t do the initial organisation and I don’t know why I would be blamed for some random, horrible people turning up that had no insignia, I had no ability, none of us had any ability to know who they were until they put their hand up, which was when they were being escorted off the premises as far as we could see.

JP Doesn’t it occur to you though, Moira, that you’re an MP, you’re got a high profile now, doesn’t it occur to you that when you participate in protests like this you are going to draw people from all over the place? Particularly people like the Sewells or the –

MD – No, why would a Nazi group come there? They weren’t there supporting us, they’ve said on their own page – oh that’s the other thing you should know, I guess. So, I said that there was a horrible Nazi salute, because I know you don’t just call people Nazis because that’s insulting to Jewish people, because I didn’t know who they were. And then later on the newspapers came out, apparently some of them didn’t have a mask on and they identified them, and they are Nazis. Terrible. But those people, whoever they are, those Nazis, have come out and said that they were there protesting both groups. They’ve said it themselves. They weren’t –

JP – So they weren’t there, they’ve said they weren’t there to support you?

MD They’ve said, or whoever that guy is, I don’t know his name –

JP – or the – Posie Parker –

MD – I don’t know who he is, but whoever they identified as being, I don’t know, with them or one of their leaders, he runs XYZ or something, and he’s got this whole post about how no he didn’t come there to support them. He came to protest both of them, because Standing for Women is – I mean, he’s insane. He’s like a pro lesbian, atheist. I don’t know. They’re Nazis. They’re insane. They were not with that group, they literally stood – the police let them stand on the other side of that pole and take a photo and then walk right through the crowd. I only saw them when they walked through the crowd. Everyone panicked. I don’t know what time it was, because we had other protestors. I was assaulted. A woman was knocked unconscious and had to go to hospital. Those crazy trans rights activists were punching horses. The police asked us to finish up early, and they liaised with me because I had – I knew the police officer in charge, Lisa, from March for the Babies, so she just reached out to me because she knew me, and she knew that I was reasonable, and I lobbied for the police to get them to finish early because they were hurting the horses and it was going insane. And I said, “I’ll do my best,” you know, “I’m not in charge of it, but I’ll ask her.”

…

MD – and I do understand that everything has come in a row. My maiden speech, International Women’s Day, and this, it is so unfortunate that they came in a row, but I made sure I didn’t say that I spoke on behalf of the Liberal Party. A Muslim woman asked me to give her message. I don’t know what those Nazi group are about, but I, you know – everybody knows, the police know, the Australian Jewish Association know, all the Standing for Women group know, everyone has condemned them. Everyone has said they weren’t invited …

JP As I said earlier, I’m not concerned about the substantive issue you feel strongly about, this is not about that. This is about Nazi links and perceived –

MD – Are you accusing me of actual Nazi links?

JP No, to the protest. To the protest –

MD – How –

JP – and the people you were working with.

…

Can you assure us that nobody you’ve worked with has any sympathies or, you know, liaisons with Nazis groups?

MD Absolutely none that I could possibly know about.

…

Because I had no ability to know that actual Nazis are going to turn up. No ability to know that.

JP But how do you know that people working around you, people you might be associating with, who you’re working with, don’t have Nazi sympathies or –

MD I mean they’re from the left. And they’re Jews, and they’re lesbians and their atheists and their radical feminists. That’s – and they’ve never said anything, anything that could possibly give me that impression.

JP I mean, this does affect the whole team, and I’m not going to sugarcoat there is a mounting concern about whether your passion for this issue, which I do not doubt and I do not ask you to relinquish. I’m not saying you should not be passionate about this issue. I need to make that clear, but there is mounting concern, which I principally share as the leader, that this is not going to stop, and this is the second –

MD So, can I ask a clarification question?

JP Yep.

MD So, if it’s not about that issue and it’s about the Nazi issue, haven’t I just – like there’s no evidence against me. They just turned up, there is footage to show that we didn’t even like look at them.

175    Mr Pesutto then invited Mr Pintos-Lopez to go through some of “the stuff” he had found online. He said that he had conducted a cursory review online in particular about Ms Keen and found that:

In October 2019, Keen appeared in a video interview with Jean-François Gariépy, a far-right YouTuber who advocates for a white ethno-state and has made videos with neo-Nazis Richard Spencer and Mark Collett, as well as former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke. She’s also given an interview to Soldiers of Christ Online, a far-right network. Then in terms of white supremacy allegations, one incident came after she took a selfie with Hans Jorgen Johansen, a Norwegian neo-Nazi who was probed by police after his comments against Jews and denial of the Holocaust. Parker was also accused of using a Barbie doll wearing a Nazi uniform as her profile picture on the social media site Spinster. Standing for Women’s protest in Newcastle on January 16, she sparked a controversy after one of the speakers, Lisa Morgan, quoted Adolf Hitler to attack trans rights. This is the quote: “Do you know the big lie? The big lie was first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf. The Big Lie is that trans women are women”, Morgan told the people at the Parker organised demonstration.

176    There then ensued a discussion about how to interpret the “big lie” quote and the Jones tweet (which, as set out above at [135] was, “Nazis and women want to get rid of paedo filth, why don’t you?”).

177    Mr Pesutto then said that “the entire LGBTI community will see that, and they – they will interpret that to mean, that if you’re same sex attracted, if you are bi, if you are, whatever else you might be, you are paedo filth”.

178    Mrs Deeming responded, “Yeah, I see what you’re saying. I know her, I don’t think that’s what she was saying at all. Like, I’m just saying because I know her, I wouldn’t have interpreted it like that. She’s very pro LGB and T …”

179    About seven minutes further on, the discussion continued:

MD In that clip I was saying you know, “we didn’t know who they were, they came to–” look, I, at that stage I don’t think I’d seen that they had identified someone.

…

I went straight out, you know. Anyway, look, I’m happy to condemn everything – I’m not arguing – like, I’m not defending them. Happy to condemn them. Happy to do that; eager to do that, that’s fine.

JP We’ll have to think that through, I don’t know –

MD – Have you got an action you are going to take against me, like is this going somewhere?

JP Possibly. In the interests of process, I want to think about what you’ve said and work it through. I guess there’s no easy way to say this –

…

MD Look, you’ve just described it as a disaster, right, I honestly did not view those women as part of that, rightly or wrongly, and I accept that, I’m not arguing that. I don’t want to spend 100 years arguing that. But honestly what views do you think that I have legitimately that are so terrible? Like do you actually think that, that I am some kind of a secret Nazi? Is that actually what you think about me?

JP No, no, it’s not the Nazi -

MD But it’s my views that keep getting condemned, my unspecific, unspecific views-

JP No, no, so sorry, sorry, Moira. I do have to stop you there, I apologise. I do have to stop you. David [Southwick] was saying precisely the opposite. David was not condemning you for your views. In fact, he was doing the opposite, and respecting the fact that whatever views you have are yours.

180    Discussion then turned to the champagne video:

DS [Mr Southwick] – They also – they all say on the couch, Moira. They’re also on the couch, [Ms Jones] was saying about – she’s using these inverted commas ‘so called Nazis’, and then this whole conspiracy theory that they were, they were part of the trans group that were dressed up. I mean, that’s, that’s way out kind of stuff.

MD And I said –

DS And you were on the couch when that happened?

MD I calmed that down, I said no I think all the police were, you know, most of them were really good, I think they made a mistake in letting, you know I don’t know why they let them through the middle.

181    Mr Pesutto then turned to what he called “a threshold question”:

JP Okay, so Moria [sic] I think there’s a threshold question about whether you feel you can be part of the team, and whether we’re convinced you can be part of the team. I have no doubt you feel so strongly about these issues that you would want to continue to do what you’ve been doing. And that’s my concern. I’m very concerned that I think the damage that has already been sustained publicly for us is not the end of the matter, it’s the start of the matter. And I’m very concerned about where Andrews is going to take it this week. They have been itching for something to clobber me with and this is it, it’s coming. And I know you’re annoyed sitting here, I can feel it. But I can tell you how much I was looking forward to meeting with the leadership – hang on let me finish. How much I was waiting and looking forward to planning what we’ve got planned this week on Redlich. We got some big stuff planned, but I have to tell you, I’m looking at it now and thinking, “can we even make that happen now?” Government’s now got the wind in it sails. You see Andrews came out strong today on that tweet, right, which was signalling what’s to come. They’re out, they’re off the ropes again. We’ve got them on the ropes. They’re off the ropes again. And so that protest yesterday, whatever you might say about it, has given them the out. And we might, if we’re lucky, be able to eke out a strategy for this week, but it’s not going to be what we had planned. It’s really bad. And again, putting aside whatever issues we all might have on things, Nazism is like the most toxic acid that can run through any political party and it’s running through us, whether we like it or not, people think we turn the other cheek to Nazis. That’s what they think, Moira. It’s bad. So, I think the threshold –

MD – And it needs to be fixed.

JP Well the question is I suppose –

DS – How do you propose to fix it?

MD You said that I was annoyed sitting here –

JP – It felt like that because you were –

MD No, no, no, no, that’s true, but you have, you know, convinced me that that does look way worse than I thought. To be fair I genuinely don’t think that, you’ve made me worry about Kellie-Jay Keen, but I do not think Katherine Deves and I do not think that Ange Jones is actually – I don’t really think any of them are –

…

MD – I’m not trying to defend it, I’m not trying to argue with you. I was all offended that you could think that I was a Nazi until you made that case.

DS No, we’re not –

JP It’s never been about accusing you of being a Nazi.

MD No, no, no, but like even that I could be, you know – because, I was saying, “adjacent” of it, what are you talking about. Right, so that’s fine. If you want to fix it, I’m open to suggestions, if you want like, you know, whatever you want to do that’s fine. I just, I’m not – I don’t want to argue as if I’m defending like Nazism. I just, I don’t know what to do now.

JP I think, so in the interest of candour, I came into this meeting thinking there were two outcomes, either you resign from the Parliamentary Party or I look at a process under the Parliamentary Party rules. I can’t rule those out. I’m thinking, on the basis of our discussion, whether there is a third way which doesn’t involve the same kind of outcome as those two options. I don’t know that that’s possible, to be honest, but in the interest of working through the process fairly I’m prepared to sort of confer with the leadership team, to take on board what you’ve said, and see if there’s a way. But I just don’t get the sense you appreciate how toxic this is for us with again, the issues – it is so toxic.

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